Castles & Crusades: Save Redux

In C&C, all class abilities and saving throws are resolved with Siege: A stat-based saving-throw and class ability/skill mechanic.

Of your core stats: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, two are primes and the rest are secondaries (there's an option for tertiaries as well; also of note, humans start with three primes). Primes start at 12, secondaries start at 18 (with tertiaries it is 12, 15, 18, a better option in my opinion). These are target numbers -- like classic saving throws.

To make a Siege check, you add your level and your stat bonus to a d20 roll to meet/beat that Siege target number. Further, that target number will probably be modified by the level of the threat, such as saving against a spell cast by a 7th level wizard or disarming a trap set by a 10th level NPC. In many ways, that's logical, but, as you gain levels, you will have to face tougher threats, which leads to the following reality: The more levels you gain, the more skilled you become...and...the more challenging the traps, spells, and locks also become, so... are you really improving? Sure, if you encounter a 1st-level trap, but, this has been a problem since 3rd edition.

The beauty of older systems, with regard to class abilities, is that you actually got better at what you did without the fear of encountering more complicated obstacles. Locks were locks, poison was poison, spells were spells, and traps were traps. Period. Sure, you would occasionally encounter some kind of modifier, e.g., save at -4 against this or that, but that was kind of rare. It was good to know that if you had a 70% chance to disarm a trap... you had a 70% chance to disarm a trap.

Now, I don't want to bash C&C (as I like the game) but Siege can break down, making your base primes unstoppable by around 7-9th level, practically mandating more complex obstacles.

Example: 8th level thief, 18 dex (+3) -- prime (12). That's +11 (level 8, + 3 for dex) to your d20 roll, in essence, the base target number becomes 1 (12 - 8 - 3 = 1) Unless this thief (rogue) meets more complex threats, all successes are automatic, unless you count a natural 1 as an auto-fail. Now the GM, must, to keep things interesting, assign an almost arbitrary difficulty level to your roll. "Oh btw,  that lock was built by a 15th level locksmith!" 

Yeah, no.

Another thing, I know it sounds logical that higher level wizards cast tougher spells, but better saving-throws as you leveled up was a specific counter-weight to the powerhouses that high level wizards became.

• Palladium Fantasy handles this fairly well, with wizards gradually becoming better at casting; their spell's save number improves by 1 every 3 or 4 levels of experience.

And also, should higher level wizards cast tougher spells in a game where each spell is a specific magical formula designed for a specific purpose (Vancian!) regardless of the spell-caster's experience? -- But that's a whole separate topic, because... D&D is actually quasi-Vancian; some spells do in fact scale with caster level. Otherwise, you'd have a 1d6 fireball spell, a 2d6 fireball spell, a 3d6 fireball spell, and so on.

Also, I'm a fan of the notion that if a thief makes his stealth roll, whether moving silently or hiding in shadows, then he succeeds, period. No perception checks. The thief's failure IS the perception check.

And so, here is my Save Redux for C&C (and any version of the game really)...

A more standard saving-throw/ability-check system. The target numbers start the same: Primes: 12, Secondaries: 15, Tertiaries: 18. Subtract any ability modifiers. And those are your fixed saves. These saves improve by 1 every 3 levels. Except for rare circumstances, your roll is NOT affected by caster-level, monster level, or artificially inflated locks/trap levels, etc. See below...

•  0 at levels 1-3
• -1 at levels 4-6
• -2 at levels 7-9
• -3 at levels 10-12
• -4 at levels 13-15
• -5 at levels 16-18
• -6 at levels 19-21
• -7 at levels 22-24

Your Save numbers are frozen at 24th level (and no save can ever go below 2) never to improve (unless your core stats improve, maybe). For any progression beyond this (such as an Immortal system I've fiddled around with for levels 25-36) you would roll with advantage (if for some reason you don't know what advantage is, it's rolling 2d20 and keeping the best result).

We'll use a rogue as an example since they use Siege more than any other class (with comparisons to AD&D saves): 

1st level human rogue...

                                                        New Siege Save                    AD&D

• Str:   12          Tertiary               Siege: 18                  Poison/Death:  13
• Dex: 18 (+3)  Prime                  Siege:   9                  Paralyze/Poly: 12
• Con: 13 (+1)  Secondary           Siege: 14              Rod/Staff/Wand: 14
• Int:   12          Prime                  Siege: 12                             Breath:  16
• Wis:   9          Prime                  Siege: 12                                Spell:  15
• Cha: 14 (+1)  Secondary           Siege: 14

                                                          Average: 13.1                      Average: 14

At 13th level, he looks like this:

• Str:   12          Tertiary               Siege: 14                  Poison/Death:  10
• Dex: 18 (+3)  Prime                  Siege:   5                  Paralyze/Poly:   9 
• Con: 13 (+1)  Secondary           Siege: 10              Rod/Staff/Wand:   8
• Int:   12          Prime                  Siege:   8                             Breath:  13
• Wis:   9          Prime                  Siege:   8                                Spell:   9
• Cha: 14 (+1)  Secondary           Siege: 10

                                                         Average: 9.166                      Average: 9.8

At 24th level, good for sure, but still vulnerable...

• Str:   12          Tertiary               Siege: 11                 Poison/Death:    8
• Dex: 18 (+3)  Prime                  Siege:   2                Paralyze/Poly:    7
• Con: 13 (+1)  Secondary           Siege:   7            Rod/Staff/Wand:    4
• Int:   12          Prime                  Siege:   5                            Breath:  11
• Wis:   9          Prime                  Siege:   5                               Spell:   5
• Cha: 14 (+1)  Secondary           Siege:   7

                                                        Average: 6.166                      Average: 7

Now keep in mind, C&C's saving throws categories are linked to core stats as follows (with some spells affecting different stats):

• Str:    Paralysis, Constriction
• Dex:  Breath Weapon, Traps
• Con:  Disease, Energy Drain, Poison
• Int:    Arcane Magic, Illusion
• Wis:  Divine Magic, Confusion, Gaze, Polymorph, Petrification
• Cha:  Death, Charm, Fear

(I have reworked these saves to my fit own logic, including shifting death saves to your best save and I also reassigned lock-picking and trap-removal to Intelligence; Dex is for avoiding sprung traps). My version with Death being your best save...

• Str:    Paralysis, Constriction
• Dex:  Breath Weapon, Traps
• Con:  Disease, Energy Drain, Poison, Polymorph
• Int:    Arcane Magic, Illusion & Confusion, Lock-Picking, Trap Finding/Removal, Searching
• Wis:  Divine Magic, Fear, Gaze, Petrification
• Cha:  Charm, Loyalty, Morale

C&C gives options for alternate stat bonuses, such as the more modern ones started in 3rd edition. These would only change some numbers by 1.

The above rogue is only slightly better than his AD&D counterpart because of stat bonuses, which other than wisdom, are not applied to saves in AD&D. Your typical fighter would be slightly worse off in Save Redux.

Under Save Redux™ (which can actually be applied to any version of the game) if you want to attempt something that falls under the jurisdiction of another class, like thief abilities, tracking, and other non-mystical stuff, treat all stats like tertiary stats with zero level adjustment; stat bonuses do apply though, so: 18 minus stat bonus. Also, it gets one point harder with every attempt. So a fighter with a +1 Dex bonus (I prefer Int here, but whatever) trying to pick a lock would have to roll a 17+ no matter what his level is. And if he fails, his next attempt is 18+, and if he fails again and tries again, 19+... that would be 30 minutes (3 turns) wasted, and at least one wandering monster check.; (C&C doesn't use "turns" but you probably do). And you could rule that once you hit 20, it ain't gonna happen.

And speaking of monsters...

In C&C, monsters have two saves, physical and mental; one or both can be primary (secondary takes the slot of tertiary). So, that would be 12 or 18 adjusted by the level chart above. Examples...

• Gargoyle (5HD): P:11, M:17
• Young Adult-Adult Green Dragons (10-12HD): P:9, M:9
• Titan (17HD): P:7, M:7
• Goblin (1HD): P:12, M:18

Monsters are slightly more vulnerable under Save Redux™, however, percentage-wise, they're not too far off from AD&D 1st edition.

Now just for fun, I'll take it further and give monsters three saves because a lumbering beast can have loads of fortitude but no agility, so: Fort/Reflex/Will, with varying combinations of primaries, secondaries, and tertiaries. The above four monsters perhaps now look like...

• Gargoyle (5HD): F:11, R:14, W:17
• Young Adult-Adult Green Dragons (10-12HD): F:9, R:12, W:9
• Titan (17HD): F:7, R:10, W:7
• Goblin (1HD): F:15, R:12, W:18

The beauty of Save Redux™ is that it's cleaner; there's no math, and it still gives you that collision of old and new.

All for now.